A few weeks ago I spoke at a high school youth conference in Tennessee. Mostly I talked about dating, but I also spent a good ten minutes or so addressing the question of modesty.
I asked the girls some hard questions:
“Is it okay to run in a sports bra?”
“What about volleyball shorts? Are they immodest?”
“Cheerleading skirts?”
I emphasized that guys are responsible for their thoughts and actions, but challenged the girls to think differently about the way they looked at themselves in the mirror when they left the house.
I asked them to consider their actions a generous donation to their brothers who are battling for purity.
You should have seen the looks on these girls faces. What I had said was not popular.
After the session I started second guessing myself. Was I being unrealistic with the girls? Old fashioned? Was I just plain getting old…?
But before I had time to think too much, a young man (high school student) approached me and very courteously requested that next time I was going to stand on stage, I didn’t wear such short shorts.
I felt my face do exactly the same thing the girls’ faces had done.
Short shorts? I thought. These aren’t short. I just have long legs. And, by the way, are you aware that it is 100 degrees outside?
I thanked him for his courage and honesty (and meant it) and without any resentment or regret, wore longer shorts the next day. I’m being totally serious. His honest admission: “What you’re wearing is hard for me,” challenged me to change what I wore the next day.
But I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it ever since. It makes me wonder:
How important is modesty?
When it comes to purity, who’s responsibility is it?
Is it different if you’re in high school or if you’re a 20-something?
What does modesty even look like?
I’ve had a handful of conversations since that day and I want to tell you about them. But before I do, I want to ask you, especially if you’re a man…
i would really love to quote my husband when you told us that story, but that would make the internet unsafe for children.
Now you have me very curious!!!
First, mad props to dvest for introducing me to your blog.
So, modesty – what a hot topic (pun intended).As a guy, it bothers me when women wear immodest outfits, especially to church. Yes, we’re in charge of what we think, but sometimes we don’t have control over what we see. If women flaunt themselves openly in front of us, there’s not much we can do about it, and to me, that’s not very Christ-like.One of my favorite things about my wife is her modesty in what she wears. I’ve never seen her in something that would make me wonder if it would make other guys gawk at her. In fact, she’s told me the greatest compliment she’s ever received in her entire life was from a youth intern at a church she used to work at during college a few years ago. On her birthday everyone in the office said their favorite thing about her. This intern said he most appreciated her modesty. He never had to worry about her being tempted to check her out because she never wore anything that visually “invited” him to do so.
Great topic. I look forward to the dialogue.
Wow Ally…thanks for your courage to share that story! I would have been mortified…I know because it happened to me when I was a student and a CCC staff woman told me MY shorts were too short. I bristled. I think it takes a certain level of maturity to live out a Philippians 2 kind of love that considers others (guys) as more important than yourself and to look out not just for your interests, but also for the interests of others. It takes a Jesus humility. I’m so glad you listened and responded.
Once upon a time I bought into the idea that it didn’t matter what I wore…that I wasn’t responsible for the thoughts of others. I’ve grown up since then and am now a mom of an 11 year old girl and have a huge burden of “example” on my shoulders. I am much more careful now…but still I know there are times when I likely fail at this. It’s such a fine line sometimes….
I am curious what others think and will say about this….I find it such a hot-button topic because it is IMPOSSIBLE to dress in a way that is consistently NOT going to lead others astray. For some the mere glimpse of an ankle can turn their head and get their thoughts going (okay maybe that’s an exageration…). For others, being at the beach and surrounded by bikini wearing women does nothing for them. Yes we need to be careful that we are not purposely setting out to draw attention to ourselves through our clothing however the line of what is modest and what is not is so different for everyone.
I think, really, it comes down to attitude and motive. If a woman is endeavoring to attract attention with her body not only will her clothing scream that, so will the way she carries herself and her attitude. The opposite is also true.
This is one of my “can of worms” subjects within the church—how can I resist commenting?
Honestly, I think church is creating a lot of its own problems about modesty. Women are constantly told what they can or cannot wear, so they won’t “cause men to stumble,” but really that becomes an excuse for men to blame women for their issues. Am I to believe that my fellow men literally cannot take their eyes off any exposed female legs?
Get over yourselves and man up.
As men, we’re just as responsible for modesty issues—if not more so—than women are. If you have a problem with what you do and think when you see a woman, then that’s your own problem. Not hers.
Now I don’t believe women are entirely excused from this topic, either. Ladies, are you wearing those shorts because they’re cute or because you like the attention you get when you wear them? There’s nothing wrong with dressing to look good, just stop and think of your intentions. If you’re just taking a quick route to attention, believe me, you’ll get it; is that really what you want though? Do you want a man to lust after you, or would you rather him see your beauty? (Keep in mind beauty isn’t just physical).
So does this all work? I played volleyball and was a competitive swimmer; I saw my fair share of women in (not much else but) tight spandex. Guess what? I’m not a pagan for it.
Women, you don’t need cheap attention. Men, quit blaming your problems on women. We’ll all be stronger for it.
Thank you! I have a real issue with the idea that women are responsible for the attitudes and actions of men in this regard – am I responsible for making sure I am not purposely trying to lead others astray? YES! But beyond that there isn’t much I can do. If we start to really believe this, not only does it take the responsibility off of men for their attitudes and actions in this area but it will spill over into other areas (if it hasn’t already or maybe those other areas are spilling over into this??!).
As women it is not impossible for us to tell men to man up and take responsibility for themselves however in some areas there is a far greater impact and impression made when men begin to stand up to other men in this way. So thanks! Thanks for man-ing up and for calling others to do the same.
Yes, thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth.
Modesty. Why does it always come down to women being modest and/or immodest. Nobody questions a guy running shirtless. If we start thinking “oh that might tempt him to ______ if I wear my cute, white shorts”, we are eventually going to end up covered from head to toe like Saudi Arabian women – for fear the leg or arm or glance at a collar bone could “make” a man come after you.
We teach children from a young age that they are in control of their own actions. They will be tempted by many things throughout their lives…drugs, drinking, peer pressure to do all sorts of things. A woman shouldn’t feel like she has to hide her body for fear of tempting men. Men don’t hide heir bodies. I whole heartily agree with Alex’s statement that the intention is important. There’s nothing wrong with dressing to look good – but we do need to think about our intentions.
And It’s okay to think someone’s attractive. It’s not a crime. It’s not a sin. I’m dating someone and I still see good looking men when I’m out. But that’s not going to make me leave my boyfriend or cheat or “stumble” in any way. I am in control of my actions. Men and women have to grow up and take responsibility.
Modesty is a touchy subject and i understand where people are coming from, but I think many people can take modesty too far – especially when they start thinking men (or women) cannot control themselves when we wear that little black dress or cute, white shorts.
Meg, you compared modesty of men and women considering the exposure of their skin. “A woman shouldn’t feel like she has to hide her body for fear of tempting men. Men don’t hide their bodies” and ” I’m dating someone and I still see good looking men when I’m out. But that’s not going to make me leave my boyfriend or cheat or ‘stumble’ in any way.” But men and women are different and so the direct comparison is flawed. I have heard it said that what pornography is to men, chickflicks, romance novels, and fantasy are to women. Men need to not objectify women and women need to not imagine their man with the unrealistic expectation of what a man should act like based on fictional stories.
I’m not sure you can dismiss Meg’s point so easily. Men and Women are different, but there is a lot that’s the same. If you drew a Venn diagram, there would be a lot more that overlaps than doesn’t. Would you really even want to live in a world where women were not wired for visual attraction at all? Where she never thought you looked good because she isn’t wired to think that way? Pornography is as much about fantasy as romance novels are. Its not just easy access to pictures of body parts, its easy access to a fantasy where women are always willing and always satisfied. Maybe as men or women our proclivities towards objectification or fantasy skew a little heavier one way or the other, but that does not forgive the need for both genders to resist both pitfalls.
I am not dismissing Meg’s point. I mean to show how it is not a comparison that makes as much sense as my comparison because men and women are different. Some people are strongly tempted by some things while others are strongly tempted by other things. Men are strongly tempted shirtless women and while women are tempted by shirtless men, the temptation is not as strong. So instead I suggested a comparison that, while may not be exactly equal, is probably closer in how strong the temptation is.
My concern is with your example is that it may create a false dichotomy. Imagine for a second that we could quantify on a ten point scale what tempts us. I think we both agree that visual temptation is like a 9 for men, higher than women on average. But would you score visual temptation for women as an 8 or a 4? At what score would men need to start thinking about modesty? What score would women need to understand what it is to be tempted visually? Any women care to score themselves? I’m curious.
There is no objective answer. Everybody is either a male or a female and therefore cannot feel the temptation of one and then the other to compare them. But we can tell that certain things are extremely sexy for one gender that are still sexy (or at least attractive), but not extremely sexy for the other gender. To the best of my knowledge, women do not look at men whom they do not know (have never even met or ever seen before) and immediately want to have babies with them, but men do. (This is not to say that women are any less sexual or tempted than men, but that women’s temptation is strongest from non-visual sources.)
By the way. I am meaning to distinguish sexiness from beauty (though they can be hard to separate)
If someone is watching this mad spam-like reply to reply to reply and has us both figured out and can reconcile the differences, please speak up.
But if you are going to go on that epistemological route, you have to also say that you don’t know what its like for me to be tempted, because I am me and you are you, and you can’t feel the temptations I feel. At which point you can’t make any generalizations at all, you just have to take my word for it when I say I’m tempted by attractive women in skimpy clothes. And if Meg says she is tempted by the men she sees, who are we to dismiss or belittle that statement?
What I forgot to say before was that we can ask the opposite gender what is the most tempting to them and conclude that there is a difference. You are correct that I do not know what it is like for the opposite gender to be tempted. Please tell me what is most tempting so that I can change and not inadvertently tempt you.
Good post. I think it says a lot that you changed your attire the next day. I’ve never had a guy tell me anything like this (i’ve had women do so) but I can only imagine how you must of felt afterward.
This topic is so good and tricky at the same time. I think it’s important for both men and women to value modesty and to answer your question, i think it is both our responsibility. I think this is hard for women to hear because some feel that men should be able to handle their own lusts. Right? But then I have thoughts about our weak state and how much we need the grace of God in this area…and not to mention that men are visually stimulated
My own thoughts about modesty have changed in the recent years as I’ve gotten closer to God. He gave a love for my brothers and a disgust for lust. I begin to hate the feeling of being gawked at or the thought of being the object of a man’s lust. My body is more than that. I am more than that. Practically speaking, I try to not show too much leg, crack (breast or butt) or wear anything too tight. As it relates to my heart, I try to check my motives for wanting to wear certain things (to draw attention) and ask God to help me be modest not only in dress but in thoughts, speech and actions.
I understand your struggle with shorts. It’s been confusing trying to figure out what is too short so I’ve eliminated them from my wardrobe (except some that reach a little above my knees). Clearly, if a girl is hanging out of her shorts, then that’s out of the question. I would love to hear some input from the men out there about shorts and what causes them to stumble.
Whew…modesty. Wow. Ok…
Ladies, guys are visual. You know this to be true because how many times have you dressed yourself in that “little number” to get a certain guy’s attention? The problem? That certain guy isn’t the only guy’s attention that was drawn to you. Also, really, is your physical appearance and where that takes his mind what you’re looking for? The teaching about being conscious of not causing a brother or sister to stumble isn’t just something nice to do if you feel like it. It’s good solid teaching for all of us.
I work in a construction type environment. If you don’t think what you wear matters and that it causes problems, wear something short & tight & join me at work for a day. With that said…Guys are ultimately responsible for their thought life before God. It’s something we need to work on together. If your friend and you’re a female, would you care for me enough to help me in this area? I hope you would. I would help you if I knew of a stumbling block I was causing for you. Ultimately, if it really is appropriate dress and there is still an issue, then nothing you do will help.
I know as a dad to a nine year old daughter, I want her to develop enough respect for herself that she dress appropriately. I hope she also desires to be a positive influence in the lives of those she meets, even men.
First, let me say
this, men don’t need much skin showing to get the imagination running.
It’s can be as easy to lust after a girl in sweatpants and hoodie, as it
is a girl in a bikini or short shorts.
Lust has much more to do about a
man’s character, heart, and mindset. I believe this is why it’s so
difficult to prescribe to woman the exact length of shorts that are
appropriate, or the how low cut a shirt can be before it going start
making guys trip over stuff. I’m not suggesting a wardrobe free for all
here, wearing volleyball shorts and a bra to work is still not ok,
regardless of how hot it is in Tennessee. But I think most
woman know the guidelines, you’re not asking what can I get away with,
but what can I do to help some brothas out right? If it lust and modesty were simply tied to how much skin was showing, girls wouldn’t be allowed on the beach, unless they were in puffy winter coats and ski pants (and honestly, guys would still find them hot).
I think one of the
main issues here, is that modesty is as much a reflection on a girls
heart and character, as lust is for men. A lot of girls like the
attention they get from guys, and know the way they dress can profoundly
impact the attention they receive. For them, how they dress is often an
intentional act to receive attention, much like lust is an intentional
action from men. I think a lot of it boils down to “intention”. If a
woman’s intentions are for attention, how she acts will likely reflect
it, and in that light, how she’s dressed is likely just part of the
problem.
I believe this is where women are responsible. If you’re
concerned about helping guys out, be concerned with who you are and your
inward intentions, because your outward intentions tend to follow suit.
If you’re pursuing character and integrity, I feel it takes the attention away from what you’re wearing and puts it on to who you are as woman.
This is where men are responsible. We need to do a better job of
protecting you, by not buying into or promoting the physical demands
that are placed on you ladies. We need to celebrate the right qualities
in woman, and while beauty is one of them, beauty is horribly misdefined
in our culture.
This is the first thing that came to mind and I thought I would share…
There is an interesting scene in the movie Coco Before Chanel, where Coco (Audrey Tatou) is creating a dress costume for the ostentatious and promiscuous Emilienne. Ignoring all complaints of the modesty of the nun costume, Coco does not give into requests for alterations, promising the allure of the imagination to be more powerful than a showy dress. Pressed for time, Emilienne begrudgingly enters the party and by the close of the evening is thrilled by doubled the affection in the unspeakably concealing outfit.
Now, though this example prompts the problem of fantasy, it brings forth two very relevant points about modesty. First – Yes, what other people do with their minds is not in the wearers control. The most modest apparel can be ripped to shreds in minds of men. (And women for that matter). More importantly however, behind this is the notion that modesty goes far beyond what you wear. It is an action, an aesthetic, a posture and a charm.
By no means is this said to discredit visuals – they are the first and most powerful impression and often cause for the most vivid residual burns on our minds and hearts. My point is simply that to successfully combat immodesty, we need to start with an internal evaluation. We are not just combating what we commonly brush off as misguided ‘morals’. Our visual modesty is a reflection of our internal wellbeing. What is it that we are craving that makes us present ourselves immodestly? How is our personal aesthetic reflecting our internal struggles? Where are you gaining affirmation and value? Not to say you can’t start dressing modestly before addressing deeper rooted issues – but if it keeps creeping up as a concern, via conviction or counsel, addressing the underlying issues will naturally evolve your aesthetic and visual choices as well.
Plus, getting creative with clothes is way more fun. Trust me, lightly draping sweaters, trousers and scarfs are so hott right now. ; )
A bit of practical advice for the everyday:
When I first became a believer, I once heard a women speak on addressing modesty in the following terms: If you have to ask yourself ‘Is this modest enough?’ or if you ask someone else ‘Is this to revealing?’ – don’t wear it. You are questioning it for a reason. The spirit gives you discernment – listen to him.
Oh boy, here is a messy one. There are a lot of dynamics going on in this issue.
First, do it for yourself, not for the guys.
I live near the beach so rarely does a day go by where I don’t see a
girl in a bikini. Even if every one of you was as conservatively as possible, I
still have to deal with all the other girls out there. The solution to
my lust issues does not come down to how you dress. The best you can do
is create a safe place for me to rest. And that is surely appreciated.
You are never going to dress conservatively enough to not tempt any guy.
Ally, I think its admirable that that young man had the courage to ask you about your
shorts and that you complied. It was a kind and merciful thing to do in that situation. But if every girl did that every time we
would end up with the burka problem. And men would still lust after you.
They’d just do it more abstractly and imaginatively.
Second, modesty must come from a place of confidence.
I think we get what modesty is confused. You know how meekness isn’t about being weak, but about having control of your strength, not always having to use it? Modesty isn’t about being frumpy, its about having control of your beauty, about not always having to use it. I say this because I have in the past run across women who seem to use claims of modesty to mask an insecurity they have with their beauty. Some are afraid of it, some doubt it, but modesty becomes a convenient excuse to not deal with the issue. This kind of ‘modesty’ is as far away from an empowering modesty as dressing for attention is. So I think we have to be very careful about affirming the beauty of beauty while teaching our young women how to wield it well.
And then there are the ones who seem to dress modestly solely so they can be self righteous and make catty comments about other girls. *sigh* nothing sets my heart a flutter quite like that. It betrays another insecurity.
Getting caught up in what you should and shouldn’t wear is a fool’s games. It takes you long enough to get ready for a date as it is without weighting out just how tempting each of your accessories will be. Appropriate dress will change with context and culture. You are beautiful, and you will always be tempting, and that’s okay too. Its the desire of your heart that matters.
I love this response, Makana! My favorite is that you point out that “modesty must come from a place of confidence”. I use to dress in much less than I do now. Something I’ve noticed is that when I wear just jeans and a cute t-shirt, I will get just as much attention as the girls in short, tight dresses on the dance floor, but it’s better attention; the guys dance with me, but aren’t trying to touch me and being overly flirtatious. Often they are more likely to start a conversation with me instead.
I think my confidence has made me more modest, and the two together have made me more attractive – at least more so to the type of guy I’m hoping to meet.
I think there is also a mostly unspoken fear among men that pursuing modesty will result incompletely desexualized women. That would be an utter disaster. And I do think that some women have desexualized themselves for fear of ever being immodest, which only reinforces the fears the men have. Fears fan the flames of other fears.
But when you are confident in your beauty and in your sexuality, when you command it rather than letting it command you, I really do think that you discover they person God made you to be, giving you the power to share the gift of your beauty wisely, and giving glory to God through it.
And that means that you feel just as confident in baggy boyfriend jeans and a hoodie as you do in that great little strapless number you got at Anthropologie.
It’s true. And that is more empowering than all the attention from all the wrong guys (as I use to get).
Dear Makana, please write a book. Most sincerely, Renea.
Thank you for the kind words, but let get more than 6 weeks into an actual relationship before I start looking for a book deal. Right now it would be like asking them to trust a skinny chef
Haha, fair point. Only… don’t let Paul hear you talking like that.
Great comments and discussions and while I would like to go into great depth into my personal thoughts on modesty as I am pressed for time I would rather point you to a post by Matthew Paul Turner. I would like to point out that he is rather satirical in his approach, but it’s still valuable.
http://www.jesusneedsnewpr.net/i-dont-want-to-see-your-boobs-a-blog-post-about-modesty/
I think that jeans and a t-shirt can be just as sexy as short shorts and a bikini top. God made the female figure beautiful and intriguing. It will always be, not matter how it’s clad. I do think there is a vast difference between beautiful/sexy and cheap/trashy. I think that if women are dressing in a way that makes them feel beautiful and confident, that’s what is important. In an age where marketing yourself as perfect is the norm, who wants to be sub par? When I’m put together nicely, in a way that makes me feel pretty and confident, a man might think that’s sexy. I just feel confident. Being confident to me, means that my voice is one that deserves to be heard. My actions deserve to be seen. I am important. I love empowering other people, especially women. We all have so many gifts to share, and I feel that confidence is a beginning step in finding them within one’s self. It’s difficult to see, and want to share, the gifts God has given you when you’re convinced you should present yourself in a muted way. On another note, if a man can’t get past the cute strap on a sundress to focus on how intelligent and good hearted a woman is, he was never worth speaking to. And that’s what I think about that.
It should also be noted that I’ve been cat called far more while wearing sun dresses, than anything that would be considered flashy or slutty. The female figure is simply beautiful, and we deserve to feel that way. Of course, there are women who dress more for attention than for their own confidence. But believe me, it’s not the clothes that do the work. It’s the insecurity coming out of the woman. Once again, men who fall for that act, aren’t the good ones.
I like the idea of a woman dressing to feel beautiful or confident, but I fear that’s a slippery slope. Where do these feelings come from? Can they be trusted? Could they be false?
When I was first learning to drive, my dad taught me to drive at the speed I was comfortable at. His goal was simply to let me grow more confident and not be concerned so much with driving at the speed limit (which was super-intimidating at the time!). The problem is, I quickly became comfortable at high speeds. These days, driving 80, 90, or faster down the highway gives me no problems from a confidence perspective – I am completely comfortable at those speeds. That doesn’t mean I should though, especially when the limit is *cough*muchlower*cough*. Just because I’m comfortable doesn’t mean my fellow drivers are, or that I’ll avoid a ticket.
I thought I’d add a few more thoughts to the discussion, since it’s been going well.
I think that usually when we’re talking about modesty, we’re really talking about lust. But how closely are the two topics really connected. Does immodesty always cause lust?
Should Christians avoid studying medical professions because they would have to take anatomy and expose themselves to nudity of the opposite gender? Will this cause them to stumble?
What about artists? Drawing a clothed figure takes some understanding of drawing a nude figure, hence figure drawing classes with nude models. Is it possible to draw a nude figure without lusting?
What about a woman draped in loose, ambigous clothing? Is it possible to lust after her?
Are modesty and lust really directly connected?
The problem with modesty (or rather, the lack thereof) is that it’s not a problem for everyone. It’s not even a consistent problem. Like most guys, I’ll notice when a woman’s clothes reveal her figure, but most of the time I’ll discard the information much like I would the color of a car I’m driving past. Occasionally I’ll think to myself, “Did no one teach you better than that?” The sad truth though, is that society openly embraces immodesty. It has become the norm, rather than the unusual. Which makes it easy to treat like unimportant background information.
It’s when there’s some value attached from another source that it becomes more important to me. If I’m passing a regular sedan, I don’t care what color it is. When I’m passing a sports car that interests me – even days later – I can tell you it was gunmetal grey with black accents on the doors. So it is with women. (Please don’t throw rotten vegetables at me, I’m not lowering your value to that of a machine!) If I know a woman, I’ll take note of what she’s wearing. Sometimes I’m better at paying attention than others, but for the most part I can keep track.
Most of the time, it’s not a struggle for me – more like a general acknowledgement of fact. Like a healthy immune system, I can shake off the thoughts that might try to do me harm. When I’ve been under attack though, when I’m weakest and might fall to something that normally wouldn’t be a problem, that’s when I have to work hard at taking captive every thought, as Paul said to do.
First, if I could fist bump Alex and Makana, I would. Virtual fist bumps for you both as you have such amazing things and took so many words out of my mouth.
Many have already said that if we’re talking about responsibility, ultimately you can only truly be responsible for yourselves. Especially when we’re speaking to young people, teenagers especially, we need to be careful about this whole “don’t cause your brother to stumble” thing. It can make some young girls (Me, when I was a teen) neurotic. Worrying over every little thing, and obsessing over what is, I think, the wrong thing. The point is not “will my sweater cause Billy to look at me and lust?” the question is “why am I wearing this sweater? Is it tight enough and I want to show off my newfound curves, or do I just like it and honestly think it’s not a problem?” Are you wearing your clothes or presenting yourself in such a way (because really, this is not just about clothes is it?) where your main goal is to entice? That’s immodesty… not the length of a pair of shorts.
I wouldn’t have liked what that student said, but I think you handled the situation correctly. It’s tough when you’re up onstage in front of a bunch of people talking about modesty…. I mean, what else is he going to be thinking about? And then there’s the minor issue of if you were elevated and at a place of prominence perhaps the shortness of those shorts is enhanced… I’m getting nitpicky, but my point is that modesty is directly tied to appropriateness. To satirize it… the most modest of swimwear is never going to be modest at a church service, right? But at the beach, maybe we appreciate that same “modest” one-piece bathing suit rather than the string bikini.
I’ve rambled on enough, but I just want to point out my other struggle with this issue… I think a lot of times when we should be talking to the church about sexuality we roll around in the modesty argument instead and think that it’s enough. I’m not criticizing you Ally at all, because it is in issue that needs to be addressed, but it’s not the only issue, as you know since you address many others wonderfully on this blog. As a 20-something married woman, I had a HARD time adjusting my thought process from “do everything I can to keep my boyfriend/fiance from trying to get to have sex with me” to the magical change that happens when you get engaged which is that Christian women and books tell you “ok, be prepared because you need to have sex with him whenever he wants, or he might stumble and look elsewhere for sex. ” That second message was not always so pronounced as I’ve made it here, but that’s what it felt like. I spent 20 something years being “responsible” for the guys in my social circle and not causing them to stumble by avoiding sex or anything ”sexy/immodest” altogether, and now after one significant day I have to switch my actions completely and just be all about sex or my husband might cheat on me? Great. That’s a lot of pressure for women in the church. And it’s confusing. Again, if we’re just talking about modesty as a holy version of “what not to wear”, we miss a HUGE opportunity of discussing God-created sexuality and what his intentions were for it, which can, surprisingly, often make the discussion of modesty a lot easier.
I will shut up… now.
Fist bumps all around. I’m with you all the way.
Its a nasty trap to be in trying to turn your sexuality off and on like that. If I have maintained sexual purity while I wasn’t married, I’m not going to start sleeping around if I don’t have enough sex when I get married. Its a matter of discipline, not inhibition, and its almost insulting that people think I’ll be less disciplined in marriage than I am as a single person.
Likewise, I think too many women are taught to embrace modesty as inhibition rather than discipline, and as a result never become comfortable with who they are as sexual beings, reacting to men’s sex drives rather than understanding their own. Knowing and being able to articulate your own sexual needs to your mate will always be greater gift than being able to satisfy his. Men take a lot of pride in knowing they’ve satisfied their women.
On the change that happens when we get married:
As I get closer to possibly getting married and as I have learned more about the role of sexuality, its goodness, its corruptibility, and its redemption, I’m getting more curious (and a good deal nervous) about how this switch is supposed to happen. The message the Church has been sending me, a single woman, is “Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. In fact, don’t even think about it.” The second part of the message is, as you said, “When you get married, your sex had better be awesome or else your husband will look to lust for satisfaction.” This transition is, frankly, a huge deal. I’ve become intimidated by it. All of a sudden I’m expected to be comfortable with a part of myself I’ve been told is wrong, dirty, or at least dangerous? I really with the Church went beyond preaching these messages but that they had some way to guide newlyweds THROUGH this transition. I know that one-on-one mentoring works wonders, but I wish that this were something we’d be comfortable with enough to discuss it in venues and to show that we aren’t ashamed of our sexuality. I disappoints me and saddens me that this isn’t usually the case.
This article is a good step int he right direction, I believe.
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/relationship/features/22742-4-ways-christians-damage-sex
As a guy, no matter what I say on this issue I’m probably not going to make many friends of the opposite gender. However, as I’m a good netizen, I shall share my incorrect opinions on this taboo topic.
The New Testament only speaks concretely about clothing in one place, and that is when it talks about women wearing hats in church. This has largely been rejected by the modern church as a cultural commandment. In all other cases, it talks about modesty in the abstract.
I certainly think that there was a good reason nobody in the New Testament laid out specific clothing commands and allowed us to determine what our level of “modesty” is. I think that the reason for that is that what is culturally modest shifts with time and culture.
First and foremost I think that the responsibility for the sin of lust is with us men. Dealing with this is a part of learning how to be a real man, because when we eventually do marry, we will STILL have to deal with this sin. The way that we’re wired is to seek out new women with our eyes. To ensure that this instinct does not turn into lust (the beginning sin) and marital unfaithfulness (the final fruit of this branch of sin) we have to learn how to control our eyes and our thoughts. The habits that we develop before marriage are not going to just stop because we all of a sudden have a wife.
The other thing I’d like to mention is that modestly dressed women can be just as likely to lead me into lust as immodestly dressed ones. This is because lust is about fantasy and so it pretty much doesn’t matter what a woman wears a guy can lust after her.
Where I do think that modesty has a part to play is when the way a woman is dressed is distracting to the way that we communicate with her. Particularly low cut tops make it difficult to maintain eye contact with a woman as the entire time our eyes are telling us to go and dwell in the bosomy beauty that is confronting us. Similarly high cut shorts or skirts *can* have the same effect, though generally only when we’re not trying to talk to a girl. In that case it can be distracting when we’re in conversation with someone else and she walks into our eyeline.
To me, a woman is dressing modestly when she is dressing in such a way that she is not standing out in the crowd because of her lack of dress. I always saw the “dress modestly” command as being more for women than men anyway as it teaches women to respect themselves more and will ultimately lead to better relationships. When you respect yourself more the easier it is for others to respect you more.
“This has largely been rejected by the modern church as a cultural commandment.” should read “This PRACTICE has largely been rejected by the modern church as a cultural commandment.”
I’m loving the comments people are posting. As a teenager my parents were not to strict about modesty. We had one rule for sure and that was “No belly’s in church” shirts were shorter then and pants lower (it was hard to follow that rule sometimes – fashion-) I think i was lucky to have a relationship with God so my conscience/holy spirit/whathaveyou kept me fairly in check. However I did have times when I wanted boys attention and I knew how to dress to get it. I don’t know that there are hard and fast rules about to wear or not to wear but I recently read a blog posting by Michael Hyatt and he had a few great guidelines that he set out for his daughters when they were young. While I agree with basically everyone’s postings about confidence and the equal responsibility between the sexes I liked his guidelines as they certainly helped me to reconsider some outfits that might be borderline.
http://michaelhyatt.com/whatever-happened-to-modesty.html
I was there that day of the second “girls only discussion” (with the awesome chairs i might add
and that discussion was absolutley crazy. My favorite thing was when that woman said, “girls/women dress like that too get the attention of one cute guy, but with every one cute guy looking at you there are three nasty old guys also looking!” That was probably the funniest thing i had heard all day! Haha
I consider the word “modesty”. If something is modest, it is not extreme. Women are to dress modestly. I think that would mean neither super revealing nor covering everything like some Islamic women are required to do. I think that the two extremes are bad for very different reasons, but the middle is good. I think the comments are correct that dressing modestly should come from a godly heart, but I disagree with the notion that the reasons behind what a woman wears defines the modesty; if a woman has to run out of a burning house in her nightgown she is dressed somewhat immodestly though she put no thought nor heart/feelings into how she dressed (and this is an example of when men especially need to take responsibility.)
Now as far as how much is too much. Guys vary in their weaknesses as far as what part of the female body is sexiest to see. One man might see a woman in short shorts and lust immediately (or would call it a miracle if he does not) while to another man it is just more skin (and all female skin is sexy to men, but some skin areas are sexier than others.) Another man might be extremely easily tempted by cleavage while, again, to another guy it is just a sexier area of skin than others. If I see a bare mid-riff, I would give myself a 50/50 chance of not “committing adultery with her in my heart” (and the 50% chance outcome that I do not lust is a miracle.) One commenter said that God made the female figure beautiful and intriguing and it will always be no matter how it is clad, to which I completely agree. However I disagree with another statement that that commenter made. Both short shorts and a bikini top as well as a t-shirt and jeans can both be sexy, but I know that short shorts and bikini tops are sexier than jeans and a t-shirt besides how can a girl dress sexy if such a change makes no difference to sexiness?
I have seen a very few women who wear a one-piece swimsuit and some kind of shorts for when they go into the water. It just about makes me melt.
I do not understand it but I have found that women who have beauty from the inner self, godly character, which I discover when I get to know the woman, talking with her, watching her godly actions and choices, I see an outward beauty with my eyes. It is like her makeup is godly character and it makes her look beautiful. On the other hand I have seen women who I thought looked stunningly beautiful who, once I met them and know them better, lost that stunning beauty because of ungodly character and choices. Again like makeup but make-up in an aesthetically displeasing way. In both cases I see what they are naturally, how pretty they are naturally, but their makeup of either godliness or ungodliness makes them look much better or much worse than they naturally are. It is a beauty not from themselves but from God in them.
If women loved their neighbor as themselves they would dress themselves in beautiful clothes and be sensitive to their neighbors and not tempt them. Immodesty is like showing off something that the viewer cannot have. You do not tell people that there is a party if they are not invited. Modesty is putting on display a work of art that can be admired by all. Behind the modesty is a gift that is meant for only one person; nobody else can have it, it cannot be shared and so it should be covered so that there is no reason to covet.
Just have to say…this is excellent dialogue, Ally. Well done, and thanks! Love you, friend.
Both having struggles with lust, my boyfriend and I have discussed modesty at length. I do agree that modesty does not necessarily stop someone from lusting because we can do anything with our imaginations. Modesty is a way to not inviting or encouraging lust, though, and if only for that reason, it is very valuable. Whether a woman invites lust with how she dresses or not can speak volumes to her character. (And then we have the varying perceptions of what is modest and what have you. For example, I have never worn a bikini around a guy, but I’m sure I would have a different view of that style of swimsuit if I’d grown up on the beach.) As Dave Chappelle would say, don’t wear a tramp’s uniform is you’re not a tramp. (Honestly, that was the first thing that popped into my mind. Sorry for the language; I did clean it up.)
I have one situation to share. My girl friend Mills, my boyfriend Cal, and I were going to hang out in the sun for a while. Mills was wondering which swimsuit to where, and she asked my opinion. Knowing that Cal struggles with lust, I want to protect him in any way possible, even if what I do helps just a little. I asked Mills to wear the more modest suit. Unfortunately she got ticked, and she may have thought I was being prudish and old fashioned, but, if that extra bit of coverage helped Cal at all, I’d take the flack any day.
Definition of LUST
1
obsolete
a : pleasure, delight
b : personal inclination : wish
2
: usu. intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness
3
a : an intense longing : craving
b : enthusiasm, eagerness
We all have our own standards for what we’re looking for in a relationship, and please don’t consider this a personal attack. Yours is an opinion that is shared by many. however, if your boyfriend can’t look at your close friend in a bikini as a sister, but instead has sexual, or desiriing thoughts about her, he has a much deeper problem. You should be concerned. Living with a fear that the man you love is constantly having sexual thoughts about other women, is no way to live at all! Contrarily, appreciating bodies as the art form that they are is different. He should be able to notice if a woman is beautiful, as should you, for men and women alike. Admiration does not have to be sexual.
You may want to ask yourself now, if you’re going to have problems with jealousy throughout your marriage to him (or whoever). If you know he struggles with a wandering eye now, how are you going to feel during a less passionate point of your marriage? when you feel like things have grown colder between you, at least for a while? You can’t police all the women he comes in contact with.. and that will feed your insecurity.
Many conservative men and women would benefit from changing their minds about the way they think about the human body. I studied clinical massage therapy when I was 19, so I guess I was fortunate to learn a vast appreciation for bodies in a nonsextual way. Bodies, simply are miracles. God’s expertise is evident in every cell, organism, and muscle fiber. If you’re appreciating a body in admiration of God’s work, or the work that someone has put into caring for their body; there may be less of a sexual emphasis.
Like you said though, if you had grown up at the beach, you may have a different persective of the way you feel in a bikini. I did grow up at the beach. I also grew up doing ballet and gymnastics. Therefore I grew up in swimsuits and leotards as daily wear. It’s unfortunate that there are many cases of child molestation in the gymnastics world. Is this a little girls fault for wearing a leotard, the most practical uniform for the sport? No, it is a sickness that that man has, and he would take advantage of little girls no matter what. We should not confuse admiration of beauty, with a man who does not respect his sisters in Christ.
I think there are more important things in life than catering to immature men.
Also, many of us love peanut butter right? Well, the two year old I nanny has an anaphylactic allergy to peanuts. Does this mean that the entire household must go peanut free? No! it means we teach her about her restriction. At the age of two, she knows to ask about the ingredients of a snack someone offers her. Naturally, she is fascinated by this food she cannot have. I remember distinctly when she first asked if she could smell it. just yesterday, she was asking me how it tastes and if i love it. Curiosity and appreciation for the peanut butter is inevitable. She knows everyone else likes it, and she can’t have it. She also knows, that it is not good for her, and has NEVER tried to eat it.
To me, this is a sound metaphor for teaching a man to fish.. or, not fish. Obviously, there is a right and wrong place for certain amounts of skin. A negligee is not appropriate for public, you don’t wear a bikini to church or to the office, etc.. However, we should not have to hide our figures for fear of someone falling into their own peril. Sexuality is everywhere, men will see it no matter what. Teaching men self control for their own restrictions is key.. and probably not the job of their peers. This should be addressed by their parents as they grow up, and in mens study groups. I hope the man I marry has as least as much self control as the two year old I nanny.
Good points all. And, yes, those are hard questions about jealousy, insecurity, and how his lust affects me and our relationship. So hard. Thank you for speaking truth in grace.
Thank you for taking it the right way
I’m not sure if this has been stated yet but, modesty is not just a way of dressing or not dressing. It is a mindset. It is how you live your life. While what you wear is the most noticeable aspect of it, it’s not the only one. I will admit when a girl dresses with clothes that are tight or revealing I make a judgment, but it’s not always correct. There have been times I have met a girl who dresses modestly but when she opens her mouth and begins to speak I can’t help but think she’s a contradiction. While she dressed appropriately, what she talks about, whether it’s the latest celebrity gossip or Jersey Shore episode or her reaction to something someone did, is unbelievable. The same goes for men too, we talk about things that maybe shouldn’t be talked about, like certain attributes of girls or which actress we think is more attractive. I could go on, the bottom line is, modesty is a mindset above all else. And if you’re selective in what you take in and put out, you’ll be selective in how you dress and do other things as well.
Completely honest…my wife and I had commented about your shorts to one another while in Cleveland. We both silently commended you the following day.
If Ally were 25 pounds heavier, would the shorts have been inappropriate for the same reason? Would she still be causing lust? My guesss; not with the same percentage of men. Point and case, the real issue is that Ally is simply attractive. Congratulations Ally, you’ve taken great care of your body, now hide it. My guess is also, that your view of Ally’s character and intelligence did not change with the length of her shorts. Her athletic shape could still be seen, as I’m sure her longer shorts were still fitted to her body. So the real issue is judgementalism, and legalism. As Christians, don’t we have more to concern ourselves over? Sexual deviance is not the only sin out there. But for some reason, it’s addressed far more than alcoholism and child abuse. All sins weigh the same, so why are we stuck on this one?
It’s possible that you and your wife may need to develop some more common interests, so you have more to talk about than the length of someone’s shorts. I know that sounds snide, but I’m dead serious. We should be too busy intellectually and spiritually to be so judgmental of clothing.
Have you read “A Return to Modesty” by Wendy Shalit?
A good read for anyone contemplating modesty.
First a commentary on the blog post itself: I think the kid was a little lame, but he acted off his convictions and that is to be admired. I personally hope his views change and grow. I know Ally personally and know that her mind was not thinking, “If I wear these shorts, guys will be checking me out like crazy!” But I think she acted perfectly by changing her dress to respect the “weaker brother” (not weak because he was tempted by her, but weak as in his freedom in Christ, see Romans 14).
I found myself in agreement with Makana and Alex. I think I resonated greatly with Natalie as she is about as frank with her words and stated what I agree with. I think the topic of modesty has been brought to the point of making women ashamed of their beauty. This is much in the way the church has made people feel ashamed of being wealthy. Missions is all seen as going off to undeveloped worlds or now in reaching your neighborhoods, but no one is going to reach the wealthy of the world unless they live in those circles and are rich themselves. But that’s a digression.
Stephen was way wrong in stating that there is only one spot in the New Testament that speaks to dress. In fact, he chose the one that is the least direct (which he does say isn’t very direct), but 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3-4 directly speak to how a woman dresses. The spirit of what Paul says and I believe is better articulated by Peter is that it is about the woman’s heart when it comes to how she dresses. (Is the heart wicked and deceitful above all things? Yes, but it’s also the wellspring of life. (Love Bible “contradictions.”)) A woman should dictate to herself (with the Spirit) how she is dressing. To say that if you have to ask yourself if this is too low cut or is this modest enough does not necessarily mean you are dressing immodestly. You could simply have been living under a legalistic, overly conservative (not necessarily Biblical) mindset.
As Jesus tried to show your actions are directed from your heart. A man who lusts has committed adultery in his heart. A man who hates has murdered in his heart. A woman dressing to entice like the woman described in Proverbs is a prostitute in her heart. The woman who dresses beautifully (which has a lot to do with dressing to your body type) is not seeking to seduce or cause men to lust.
There is a lot of great conversation going on here, and I have to say that there are a lot of different points that I agree with. The way I see it, it is not solely a girl’s responsibility or solely a guy’s responsibility to ensure that he never has an impure thought about her.
I once dated a guy who told me that he was more attracted to me because I dressed modestly. I felt a sense of empowerment, and it made me WANT to continue to dress modestly.
Maybe there is no black or white here, but I think girls can use their common sense when picking out what they wear. There are usually ways around clothing that is just that little bit too revealing. When choosing outfits, girls should be just as respectful of other girls. I am not tempted by their revealed skin, and I also appreciate when a girl dresses modestly, because personally I don’t want to see it either.
That said, I don’t think it’s a complete crime for a girl to wear something that makes her feel good from time to time, within reason. It’s not my place to judge someone because of one outfit. But what is within reason? Again, it’s not black or white but it’s still the responsibility and the decision of the girl, and guys should respect that.
2 recommendations: “Every Young Man’s Battle” and “Every Young Woman’s Battle.” Those books address this exact topic SO WELL that I am not even going to attempt to reword them and put them up here. And yes, I would recommend both sexes read both books (for guys, PLEASE read Man’s first; trust me on this one). Ever read them? Heard of them?
Hey I think you spoke at my Alma mater – Lee University!
Everybody wants to know what the Bible says about modesty, but for some reason nobody likes the answers, so they keep asking the question. Case in point, I see precious few Bible quotes from the comments before mine. How about Isaiah 47:2-3?
Isaiah 47:2-3 states pretty clearly that nakedness starts by exposing the legs and thighs. At least that’s what I was taught.
It seems that nobody wants to hear that though. Do we just want our ears tickled and told that whatever your definition is is o.k. with God? I’m pretty sure God has an opinion on the subject.
For my two cents, God’s opinion is recorded in His Word, the Bible. God’s Opinion is fact. YMMV.